When duplicating a video layer the audio starts to stutter

I have an imported video footage that I created a composite from.  When I duplicate the video layer to make a sort of video collage type of thing the audio begins to stutter.  This is the same video, I just duplicated it into new layers and converted to 3D layer so I can resize and place the video duplicates in various places.
I turned to audio on these layers to -60db but I can still hear the audio so I created a new composite out of this duplicate and added a channel levels effect to reduce both left and right audio down to -60db which eliminates the audio for this duplicate but the original audio just stutters anyway.
This only seems to happen, at least this is the only test I have done, when duplicating an existing video layer with audio on it.
I created a composite out of the duplicate video layer just to test if it made a difference, it didn't.  Whether the duplicate is composite or not the audio still stutters.   Doesn't seem to matter the type of audio in the video footage  48k, 44.1k both do it.
Any suggestions?

Comments

  • If I physically duplicate the video file and then import that in than I can make it work but actually duplicating the same file or layer within hitfilm2 ultimate itself the audio stutters.  It's a work around but it seems to be working.  Once the work is done and the final video is created then the duplicates on disk can be erased. 
    Not sure why this is happening though because in a regular video editor this type of thing can be done easily but not in Hitfilm2.
  • I gave this a quick try and didn't have any stuttering.   What's the video format you're using?   Audio format? System specs?

    Richard
  • edited January 2014
    File formats  MP4, AVI, WMV
    44.1k / 48K
    192 kbps
    128 kbps
    I don't know what codec it's all inside the video file created by the camera.
    Converting to different formats via Handbrake has no effect with the stuttering so it seems any and all formats do this.

    Computer Specs:
    Windows 7 Professional 64-bit SP1
    Intel Core i7 2600 @ 3.40GHz
    16GB Ram
    Motherboard:  Gigabyte Tecohnology Co., Ltd. H61M-S2PV

    Computer has all the latest drivers and updates, video drivers etc...
    2047MB NVIDIA GeForce GTX 550 Ti (EVGA)
    Realtek High Definition Audio

    This only happens in Hitfilm2 and not Sony Movie Studio 12, Windows Movie Player or audio programs like Audition, Sound Forge, Audacity
    Computer has all the latest updates for drivers, video, audio, windows updates etc...
  • Cameras:   Logitech HD Webcam c615  - WMV file format  I convert to AVI to import into hitfilm2 via handbrake choose stereo audio codec
    Sanyo Xacti - older model,  MP4 format
    Sony Cybershot DSC - HX200V - MP4 file format.  There is a AVCHD 1080 60i/60p format but I choose the MP4 30P format saves out as MP4 File.


  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator
    edited January 2014
    I'm confused at how you're going to AVI with handbrake--my copy only allows Mpeg-2 and mp4/m4v output, and only has h.264, Theora and FF-mpeg codecs.
    Anyway. mp4 is a terrible codec for editing. It's highly compressed, and it's what is called a "long-GOP" format.
    Long GOP (Group of Pictures) formats only store a complete frame either every half-second or second depending on the individual camera--every other frame is interpolated in real-time. This really really slows the system down when editing, since (unless you happen to be on that one-in-12/24 frame that's actually a full-frame) the computer in constantly trying to figure out what the frame actually is.
    You're better off to get out of mp4/avchd formats and into something like DNxHD for editing. This will take up a LOT more disc space, but it's easier for the system to handle.
    This thread http://community.hitfilm.com/index.php?/topic/1573-video-compression-vs-performance/ has a longer discussion on video codecs.
    Or this article: Http://blogs.telestream.net/screenflow/2012/04/save-yourself-frustration-use-editing-formats-when-editing/
  • My two camera's output MP4 and my webcam WMV files.  I don't have the option of any of those others unless I were to convert the original file.  I do convert the WMV to either MP4 or AVI because HF2 doesn't handle the WMV file well at all.
    I don't like to convert if possible.
    Further testing has confirmed that the files generated by my camera's are the issue.  Any time an existing layer video over lapse a duplicate whether that is an entire duplicate layer or a sliced segment the audio stutters and in the case of a sliced segment the entire video slows to a snails pace. 
    As a test I am outputting a sliced video within HF2 U and overlapped segments, the estimated render time went from a minute 30 to over 7 minutes for a 15 second cut.  The final time was 2 minutes 35 seconds and the output was broken, not even one frame of footage and the audio was harsh noise feedback, it be broken.
    When you do interesting things like overlap segments from the same file HF2 goes crazy.  Duplicating entire layer of ONE video only stutters the audio but it plays ok, this is with the video duplicates overlapping, playing at the sametime.
    I have ZERO control over the file as it is generated by the camera and all three camera's I have seem to have this issue.  HF2 just doesn't like the files when you try to overlap. Duplicate layer, stutters audio, slicing a layer and then overlapping the sliced segments cause HF2 to go bat crazy.
    Three cameras, same issue.  Editing in Sony Movie Studio or Movie Maker none of these problems.
  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator
    Well. If you don't want to convert, then those issues will likely continue. As noted in the forum thread I linked above, the Hitfilm Programming team have noted that Hitfilm doesn't play well with interlanced files, or mp4--the developers themselves recommend conversion to DnxHD or ProRes.
    Again, these stutters and glitches, especially when overlapping two segments of the same video file, have to do with the nature of long-GOP codecs.
    And, since you have Vegas Movie Studio, I will note that Movie Studio can be used to convert files mp4 to DnxHd.
    BTW, I'm kind of with you on this--I don't like converting files either, if I can help it, but, if I'm going to do effects work (not just multi-cam event edits), I'll certainly transcode. h.264 and AVCHD just were not designed for heavy editing.
  • One last experiment.
    Loading the video file into Sony Movie Studio Platinum 12 and exporting the file into quicktime .mov format in 1280 x 720 and then importing this file into HF2 it works perfectly.  Exporting a 15 second test in AVI the file was 1.2GB and crashed Gomplayer which is my favorite video player, it does play in Windows Media Player and there is no stuttering or funky video / audio.  Exporting into MP4 the file size is 17MB and plays normally in whatever player I open it in.
    Apparently the only solution I have is to do a conversion to MOV and edit the MOV file within HF2.  A side note is that I don't actually have any player installed on my computer that can play a quicktime video so it is interesting that this monkeying around actually works.
    Interesting enough there is a paid plugin that comes with Sony MSP 12  that color corrects the video's wonderfully or at least does a very good start eliminating color cast.  These camera's though expensive at one time even with white balance there is a color cast to the footage.  I am not doing feature films here and more youtube stuff so yup, I am working on the cheap from my home do it yourself studio.  It works though so...
    Crazy the files.. I dunno.


  • I have no clue what DnxHd is.  I do not see that option in the export / render options at all.


  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator
    edited January 2014
    DnxHD is an Avid made Pro-Res compatible codec and can be downloaded here: http://www.avid.com/US/industries/workflow/DNxHD-Codec
    A guide to seting up DnxHD renders in vegas is here: http://johnrofrano.com/training/video-tutorials/avid-dnxhd-template-for-vegas-pro/
    Hitfilm doesn't support DnxHD output to date, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was added to a later update.
    Another advantage of DnxHD is that it won't gamma shift when viewed on a Mac (Macs and Windows have different default gamma settings), which is useful if you're in a work situation where you have to transfer files between Windows and Mac. This isn't everyone, but it does apply to me.
  • edited January 2014
    IDW don't forget mov, avi, wav, mp4 etc are not compression formats they are containers that hold the relevant codec for compression so DXnHD can sit inside a MOV wrapper or other container. So you don't convert to mov you convert to a mov wrapper with the codec you choose.
    Also the codecs recommended are aimed at smooth editing not for playback on media devices so your test with your fav media player is not surprising to me.
  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator
    Good points about wrappers. (Although, pretty much every codec wrapped in .mp4 is some kind of long GOP variant of h.264)
  • Well isn't that special.   The avid quicktime file rendered out from Movie Studio plays in gomplayer where the default MOV won't.  The MP4 files seem to convert well but the WMV files have some issues so it might not be that great for converting my webcam videos.
    The codec was last updated in 2011 but it seems to work well.  I did multiple tests and scenerios and the MP4 video conversion is good, WMV not so much and I am not sure why.  Will play more later.
    Thanks for the info on how to get this codec setup and installed.
  • Yeah, I don't personally use MOV so this is interesting.  1 minute render MP4 73MB, Avid MOV 1.5GB  so yeah, I won't be using MOV as a playable media file also 20 minute video I don't see this MOV conversion working all that well as the file size would be too large even for editing I would think.
     


  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator
    Interesting that the WMV doesn't want to convert. WMV is a variant of the h.263 codec! (Yes, h.263, not h.264), so I'd think that it would convert properly--If you have handbrake, maybe use that to convert to h.264 (Handbrake's default codec), then bounce it to DnxHD?
    Unfortunately, since you're on Vegas Movie Studio, not Vegas Pro, you can't take advantage of scripting. Otherwise, you'd be able to set up Vegas to transcode a whole series of files and leave it working overnight while sleeping.
  • Interesting that the WMV doesn't want to convert. WMV is a variant of the h.263 codec! (Yes, h.263, not h.264), so I'd think that it would convert properly--If you have handbrake, maybe use that to convert to h.264 (Handbrake's default codec), then bounce it to DnxHD?
    Unfortunately, since you're on Vegas Movie Studio, not Vegas Pro, you can't take advantage of scripting. Otherwise, you'd be able to set up Vegas to transcode a whole series of files and leave it working overnight while sleeping.


    It does convert but due to being a webcam there is a certain amount of dropped frames and when you do large movements there is a motion blur that happens.  This special MOV conversion actually takes these motion blurs and isolates them somehow and hard prints them into place which makes the video look like crap.  
    The XDCam EX MP4 render option in Sony Movie Studio converts to MP4 and when playing the mp4 back in a video player looks the same as the original out of the camera.  No other format I have tried works either only this XDCam EX built into Movie Studio.
     


  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator
    Well, XD cam is a really good edit codec, abd should work as well as DNxHD.
  • I was mistaken, even with customizing these render templates the output is not identical to the original file.
    The solution if you have a camera that outputs WMV files.
    Install Microsoft Movie Maker, on windows 7 it comes bundled in one of their free windows live bundles you download directly from them.  This download also includes 3 or 4 other software but you can just choose Movie Maker.
    Import the WMV file and choose "save movie" select the 720p option and it will save out an MP4 file.  I have tested this with footage that is over an hour and file size almost to 1GB and it worked great, save took 40 minutes but it created the file.
    Import that into Movie Studio Platinum and then export this out into the .MOV  DNxHD format and then import that into hitfilm2 and edit away all you want there will be no issues.
    What a freaking nightmare of testing and retesting to get to this solution.  The camera I have outputs 720P video in WMV format and there is NOTHING I can do about that.  I have no clue if there is 1080P WMV format if there is then your screwed I guess if you have the same issues I am.  If it can be saved to 720P with Movie Maker then I would think it would be a better quality but inside of Hitfilm2 if you make the footage layer 3D then you can actually output whatever size you want because all you have to do is physically move the footage closer or further away from the camera and then output back to 1080P.
    From what I see it is just screen size difference between 720 and 1080.   Alternatively don't use a crap camera but most I have seen that outputs files are either MP4, AVI or WMV.  Haven't seen one that output MOV because that is mostly an Apple format and on Windows it is a bit of a nightmare to install iTunes and Apple tracks your computer and internet usage so I don't want that on my computer at all anyway.
    Long ass thread but this is the best solution to WMV conversion that will work in Hitfilm2 at the best quality.
  • edited November 1

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