Does Hitfilm Ignite work completely with AE CS6?

edited February 2016 in Everything Else

Not a fan of Adobe ransomware, but there are a few things I'm interested in messing about with in CS6, so a couple of questions.

1) Does the Ignite pack work with CS6? I know it says 143 of the 146 plugins work, but is there a preferred AE version and do any of them suffer from not using the latest AE CC?
2) Is CS6 the last standalone - non ransomware - version of AE?
3) Anything significant missing in CS6 that would make me wish I'd gone for CC?
4) Any really good plugins (FXHome or anyone else's) that don't work in CS6 that would make me wish....etc.?

Reason I ask is: this lot seem to be selling AE at a price that's worth taking a dip: $149. http://emporiumdownloads.com/product/adobe-after-effects-cs6/

Anyone heard of them, are they reputable or otherwise?

Comments

  • I cannot answer all your questions, however, I can say the following. 

    CS6 is the last non-ransomware version. 

    For a full list of changes between CS6 and CC you'd probably need to search for the changelogs. A "What's New Adobe CC" Google search should do it. 

    I can say that the camera tracker changed in CC. In CS6 you have no control over where the tracker looks or what do do with points afterwards (CC allows masks to limit what's looked at and allows deletion of points after tracking to clean up data.)

    Now. I purchased my CS6 from emporium downloads. Before ordering I contacted Adobe to verify if they were a legit reseller. At the time, Adobe told me yes, so I purchased. Three months after purchase, Adobe reversed themselves and told me emporium was NOT an authorized reseller. (However, by this point I had purchased and installed the software, and was well past emporium's 30-day refund/return window. This is still the version I run, and that second Abode email seems to have vanished from my email server--look, I purchased in good faith) 

    I can't speak for Ignite running in AE CS6. I've only used it four timea since buying Hitfilm 2 Ultimate--twice for camera tracking, twice to finish a project started by someone else. 

    Btw, if you do get CS6 this script will allow to to convert an AE camera solve into a format Hitfilm can import. 

  • edited February 2016

    @Triem23 Thanks for the quick response. I'm mainly interested in playing with the point tracking I mentioned in another thread.

    Mocha - especially the anemic version provided with Hitfilm - doesn't thrill me. I could upgrade to the Pro version or, apparently....buy CS6 for less and have some fun with other stuff.

    I can see a list of differences on the Adobe site, but don't know if I'd miss/need any of the newest stuff. As long as plugins work with it, I can take the chance I'll still be ahead on points and save a barrel load of cash on something that would otherwise stop working when I stop paying for it.

    What script? Did you forget to drop in a link? ;)

  • By golly, I did! 

    I have yet to open AE on my shiny new beast, but on my previous machine I found AE much slower than Hitfilm--especially in 3D. But you'll certainly enjoy the tools AE has Hitfilm doesn't (Puppet Warp comes to mind, but a Hitfilm analog would be called "Pin Warp," or something...) You'll also appreciate Hitfilm's strengths a lot more. Unless you go the plug-in route for AE (but Trapcode and Element 3D cost more than your next three Hitfilm Pro upgrades ;-) ) I think AE might end up as your primary tracker, but you'll use this script to bring it back to HitFilm. :-) 

    www.motion-graphics-exchange.com/after-effects/AE3D-Export-Maya-Max-and-Lightwave/4bff8b4034916

  • @Triem23 Aha! Thanks. Looks like it might be worth a punt then. :)

  • @Palacono If you're just looking to play with point tracking Voodoo is still available, free (assuming non-commercial use) and exports the Maya format HitFilm can use.  Side note - Videotrace can use Voodoo camera data too. 

    If you're looking at AE CS 6 hoping for better tracking then you're probably going to be disappointed. Adobe tried making the point tracker a fully automatic solution and when it fails, and it fails a lot, there isn't much you can do to make it work. Like Triem mentioned later CC versions added some manual controls to try and help but don't hold your breath. Most people just give up on it and get Syntheyes, The Foundry CAMERATRACKER plugin or upgrade the Mocha version that ships with AE to Mocha Plus (or Pro). On that note if you think Mocha HitFilm is anemic wait until you see the version that ships with AE! HitFilm users don't gain very much upgrading to Mocha Plus, AE users gain A LOT! Anyway the latest Film Riot episode illustrates my point pretty well. What should have been a simple track failed and their guest artist Sean Mullen switched to the Foundry plugin to get a camera solve.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GGZNvcvMzY

    If you're really serious about tracking, save up for Syntheyes. It's at least as good as anything else out there and can be dropped in with just about any software or workflow so no matter what you end up using you'll always have it.

  • edited February 2016

    @Aladdin4D Now that's what I like about this forum. Huge fonts founts of knowledge just happy to share them. :) (See here for the reason for the edit)

    I also wanted to mess about with this AE Animation plugin that someone posted elsewhere today: http://misterhorse.tv/products/animation-composer/ 

    But Voodoo will keep me happy for a while. And good catch on it being useful for VideoTrace. ;)

    Oh, and I've not finished on my Parenting Bug thread after all. ;) It's Scale that's the problem. Does not need to be applied at Parenting time, does need to work thereafter. Fixes everything if it does that, and breaks nothing. Unless you're doing some very specific Parent, Scale, UnParent, position stuff to manipulate motion paths to fake pseudo 3D perspective on 2D layers. Which no one is - except me, now I've discovered it's possible - because everyone else is using uniform scaling and Nulls/Points. Which it doesn't work with....and because it's easier to just make them 3d planes. So no downsides.... ;)

    Would also probably make Hitfilm work slightly faster because every keyframe that's been inherited after parenting has to have that scaling applied to an already scaled value, even when it was only at 100%. So, multiplying a number by 1? Very useful... Video coming sometime after I've finished playing with Voodoo... ;)

  • HitFilm Ignite is not supported in CS6. It requires CC or above: https://hitfilm.com/store/hitfilm-ignite#requirements

  • @AxelWilkinson, Aargh. What about the plugins that came with HF3P?

    I guess you can't have everything, ;) but just having a point tracker, exporting the data and loading it into Hitfilm would be a small step forward. Which I'll be trying with Voodoo anyway to start with.

  • Aladdin4dAladdin4d Moderator
    edited February 2016

    A couple of things on tracking in general. Point cloud trackers are feature trackers just like HitFilm's native tracking. The differences are there are a lot more features being tracked (usually corners) and a vector is calculated for each feature being tracked. Once the vectors have been generated that's what's used to calculate 3D positional data giving you a camera solve. So track features, generate vectors, use vectors to solve for camera.

    Since you are just tracking features blur is your enemy. If you know you're going to be tracking a shot adjust your shutter speed to limit motion blur and smooth it out in post after tracking. You'll be glad you did. If you can't do that and a feature tracker is failing then that's where a planar tracker like Mocha can get accurate solves where other options can't. Mocha tracks planes rather than features and planes can be very blurry but still trackable as a plane. Side note - You can improve feature tracker results by masking out blurred areas and removing points that are failing to track anything accurately.

    The tracking medium makes a difference too. Ranking the choices from best to worst goes 1) camera or delivery codec, 2) intermediate codec and 3) image sequence. All trackers work best with image sequences and worst with camera codecs. A really simplified explanation is very similar to why editing in a camera codec is a bad idea - a lot of information has to be generated on the fly and trackers really like having that info set in stone before trying to track anything. 

    Ok so back to Parenting - What you wrote sounds logical and makes perfect sense except for one thing - Mathematically parent-child works the exact opposite of the way you think it does. Quoting for clarity.....

    "Does not need to be applied at Parenting time, does need to work thereafter."

    "Would also probably make Hitfilm work slightly faster because every keyframe that's been inherited after parenting has to have that scaling applied to an already scaled value, even when it was only at 100%."

    Scale needs to be applied at Parenting time and is never applied again for the duration of the relationship. Even if you change the scale of the parent object, scale is not re-applied, Instead the pre-calculated values generated at Parenting time are used for the transform. The parent-child model as-is, is the low computational model. What you propose has the exponentially greater computational load. Other than parent-child the next lowest computational load model is null points. A null point isn't constrained the way anything that isn't a null is and can achieve the same or similar results with a fraction of the computational load of other options.

    I've had to sit through a few presentations on this stuff over the years and I've been digging through my archives trying to locate the presentations since this started. I've found a couple of PowerPoints but I haven't found any recordings of the presenters yet so I can give you a bunch of slides with equations, but no explanation as to what the heck any of it means. I probably turned the recordings back over to the A/V company I was working for at the time and they're long gone but I'll keep trying. There really isn't a bug here. 

  • edited February 2016

    @Aladdin4D, I'll answer it further in the other thread with a video, but by Scaling being applied at other times: I meant when you scale up the parent (including non-uniformly) it's applied to the child. If you scale/move the parent after parenting, the child changes its coordinates and size accordingly, so I don't see where you're saving any calculation that you wouldn't also be doing if you'd not done the initial scale factor. 

    Anyway, if you've got any interesting info, I'd be happy to read it in the other thread. :)

    But while you're here... ;). I've been playing with Voodoo and it tracks nicely, I can drop shapes into it with the Modelling Tools option and they track well with the scene, then I export as a Maya scene and import in to Hitfilm and...yikes. Not even close to anything usable. The camera has a roll that's not even in the original. It's also upside down in the 3D camera viewer in Voodoo. It's like X,Y and Z are treated more like -X,Z,Y or something.

    Found an old thread here in Hitfilm, http://hitfilm.com/forum/discussion/688/voodoo-motion-tracker but it's not a  framerate issue, that's 25 everywhere (I guess that bug was fixed) and the thread that's referred to in that thread is no longer around.

    I'm guessing it's got something to do with the camera, as all the instructions say "set up your camera with all you know about it" which is sweet nothing-at-all for the shot I'm tracking...so do you know of any other places I could look for some more specific Hitfilm info?

    There's an old Hitfilm YouTube Tutoral for importing from PFHome? (no longer exists, there's PFTrack...), but that tracking data works right away, so... suggestions? :)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0twIkXPAq4

  • Ummm no suggestions off the top of my head because I didn't have that problem but I'll check into it and see if I can think of anything.

    For parenting -

    "so I don't see where you're saving any calculation that you wouldn't also be doing if you'd not done the initial scale factor"

    I know you don't see it and I wish I had the math skills to explain it better but you save a truly massive number of trig (i.e. floating point) calculations by enforcing at parenting time. It's a group of calculations that only gets done one time. The results generate integer values which are then used for high speed, low impact manipulation. Any other option means you're doing a ton of floating point calculations for each and every tiny change after parenting.

  • edited February 2016

    @Aladdin4D I had a bit more of a play with Voodoo. It's a little challenging. Can't work out if it's the data it exports or if Hitfilm doesn't understand what to do with it, if it's not quite what you'd actually get out of Maya itself.

    Everything within Voodoo appears to work fine. Well, up to the point when you export the data.

    I've found that scanning frames from 0 can cause massive drift when they're exported (or imported?), but tracking from 10 frames in and they're all perfect. Strangely, they always look fine within Voodoo, apart from the fact that it flips the camera and the image upside down in the 3D Viewer, every time. Even when I set it the right way up before I start tracking. Frustrating that it never got out of beta and was abandoned in 2012, but it's interesting when it works for a few frames.

    I tried taking preprepared  project files and importing them into Hitfilm , but that doesn't  work.  Taking the dredger from here: http://www.viscoda.com/en/downloads/examples and the frames in the Maya file are twice as far apart as they need to be. Only by scaling the camera position points down by 50% (Alt-drag) do they match up with the video frames. Or halving the speed of the video. Everything  is at the correct 25fps. But retracking the images and exporting them works OK and at the right speed when that file is imported into Hitfilm. Except for one little hiccup as the camera passes the horizon line; when it flips from above it to below it. When that happens all the points rise and fall together slightly, but are rock solid the rest of the time.

    Most confusing, but given how much points wander about whenever I import data from Mocha, I'm not sure if it's Hitfilm messing things up on import, or the data getting mangled on export. I'd always suspected it was Mocha rounding numbers badly, but now I'm beginning to wonder.

    So, I might have to buy AE after all and hope that exports tracked points properly, unless you're getting different results when you play with Voodoo and Hitfilm? Perhaps with that dredger Maya script and/or your own experience?

    I could not get good results with the Video Copilot movie from here, which was a shame, because it would have been nice to recreate in Hitfilm without going via Mocha.
    http://www.videocopilot.net/blog/2015/02/new-tutorial-city-destruction/

  • Aladdin4dAladdin4d Moderator
    edited February 2016

    @Palacono I haven't seen then kind of issues you are. I can't say I've used Voodoo a lot but when I have there wasn't anything unexpected. I also just tried two of the VooCAT samples and they seemed to import ok as well. Beyond the frame rate are you making sure to set the project resolution and PAR to match too? The last example has a PAR of 1.333 so just throwing that out there.

    Voodoo wasn't really abandoned it just went commercial. VooCAT and CineCAT are based off of the Voodoo core. VooCAT is €99.00 and Viscoda has a demo but I haven't tried it to see how it's different from Voodoo. 

  • edited February 2016

    @Aladdin4d did you import the dredger Maya_script.ma file and images? Didn't work in Hitfilm for me without having to change image frame rate by 50%.  I just looked in the Maya script file and found the issue. Even though there are only 21 video frames, it thinks it has 42 animation frames. Doh!

    Yes, I adjusted PAR etc. When I retracked the dredger it worked well enough except for that little hiccup/skip it did as the camera crossed the horizon. Don't know who is responsible for that.

    Just downloaded the VooCAT demo to play with, although, even if it works better, $99 for that or $149 for AE CS6 is no contest, but I want to try and work out if it is Hitfilm or Voodoo that is responsible for the wandering points.

    Edit: Hmmm..with no Export in VooCAT unless you buy it, it's not a lot of use as a demo. :(

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